Comments on: Selecting languages and frameworks for developing web applications and the Blub paradox http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/ Scratchpad on Wicket, programming and stuff Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:27:58 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: bilstein struts http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-9383 bilstein struts Sun, 17 Aug 2008 02:48:24 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-9383 for the scala list "I agree with your sentiment. I just want to be very conservative. The reason is that I'd hope we'd minimize the mistakes that go into the standard library. Once a mistake is in there, to the extent Scala is successful, it will be impossible to remove. The Java API is littered with bad design and regretful decisions. It adds a lot of noise to working in Java. Scala is such a nice language that it would be a pity if its standard library was full of noise." I agree with that. I think it would be a good idea to be very clear to what is officially part of the Scala family - and things like using scalax.* or even hosting downloads on the same web site will give it an official flavor - and what are separate initiatives that should be evaluated as such. Anything with that official flavor should be great, undisputed code. Also, I think that JEE is a good example of what Scala should not follow. Many things in JEE are disputed, and JEE has been holding back innovations more than it fostered. -A. Bilstein for the scala list
“I agree with your sentiment. I just want to be very conservative. The
reason is that I’d hope we’d minimize the mistakes that go into the
standard library. Once a mistake is in there, to the extent Scala is
successful, it will be impossible to remove. The Java API is littered
with bad design and regretful decisions. It adds a lot of noise to
working in Java. Scala is such a nice language that it would be a
pity if its standard library was full of noise.”

I agree with that. I think it would be a good idea to be very clear to
what is officially part of the Scala family – and things like using
scalax.* or even hosting downloads on the same web site will give it
an official flavor – and what are separate initiatives that should be
evaluated as such. Anything with that official flavor should be great,
undisputed code.

Also, I think that JEE is a good example of what Scala should not
follow. Many things in JEE are disputed, and JEE has been holding back
innovations more than it fostered.

-A. Bilstein

]]> By: Nicolas Janin http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-9303 Nicolas Janin Wed, 21 May 2008 06:37:48 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-9303 I've also embedded the Pnuts language with success in a project and I agree it's a very good unassuming piece of software. It deserves much more praise than it currently receives. I’ve also embedded the Pnuts language with success in a project and I agree it’s a very good unassuming piece of software. It deserves much more praise than it currently receives.

]]> By: Nicolas Janin http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-9304 Nicolas Janin Wed, 21 May 2008 06:35:48 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-9304 I've also embedded the Pnuts language with success in a project and I agree it's a very good unassuming piece of software. It deserves much more praise than it currently receives. I’ve also embedded the Pnuts language with success in a project and I agree it’s a very good unassuming piece of software. It deserves much more praise than it currently receives.

]]> By: Peter Mularien http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7765 Peter Mularien Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:48:15 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7765 <blockquote>While Google will hide the greatest losers for you, unfortunately, bad ideas can stick around for a long time.</blockquote> And, sadly, the reverse is true - you can find a great open-source project through Google (or an old link, etc...) and be saddended when you see that what was once a project with a lot of promise has had no progress for the past 2 years :( (this recently happened to me when checking out <a href="http://mc4j.org/confluence/display/mc4j/Home" rel="nofollow">MC4J</a>). Good post!

While Google will hide the greatest losers for you, unfortunately, bad ideas can stick around for a long time.

And, sadly, the reverse is true – you can find a great open-source project through Google (or an old link, etc…) and be saddended when you see that what was once a project with a lot of promise has had no progress for the past 2 years :( (this recently happened to me when checking out MC4J).

Good post!

]]> By: Eelco Hillenius http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7685 Eelco Hillenius Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:34:02 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7685 @ Michael, Yeah, I agree. Try to maximize on the mix that works for you. They don't have to exclude each other, but neither do they have to have the same weight. As for living with the drawbacks of a framework... well, that really depends on how big the drawbacks are (of both the language and framework). It is entirely possible that the new combination pays of within say a month, making it ultimately more efficient to go for that. :-) @ Michael,

Yeah, I agree. Try to maximize on the mix that works for you. They don’t have to exclude each other, but neither do they have to have the same weight.

As for living with the drawbacks of a framework… well, that really depends on how big the drawbacks are (of both the language and framework). It is entirely possible that the new combination pays of within say a month, making it ultimately more efficient to go for that. :-)

]]> By: Michael Sparer http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7679 Michael Sparer Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:24:48 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7679 From my point of view it is the combination of different goals and the ease of development that make me choose a framework/technology. The goals you mentioned in your first point doesn't have to exclude each other (you didn't claim they do, I just want to make it clear :-)). It should be the maxim of each technology to combine as many "goals" as possible anyway :). You're right it's never a waste of time to learn a new language, but as far as I'm concerned I'd rather live with a drawback of a framework in a language I already know than learning a new one from scratch ... From my point of view it is the combination of different goals and the ease of development that make me choose a framework/technology. The goals you mentioned in your first point doesn’t have to exclude each other (you didn’t claim they do, I just want to make it clear :-)). It should be the maxim of each technology to combine as many “goals” as possible anyway :).
You’re right it’s never a waste of time to learn a new language, but as far as I’m concerned I’d rather live with a drawback of a framework in a language I already know than learning a new one from scratch …

]]> By: Fred Daoud http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7619 Fred Daoud Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:26:45 +0000 http://chillenious.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/selecting-languages-and-frameworks-for-developing-web-applications-and-the-blub-paradox/#comment-7619 Agree with all of your points. Very well written post. Cheers, Freddy Agree with all of your points.
Very well written post.

Cheers,
Freddy

]]>